Anachronus
Rear Admiral (RADM)
Posts:2286
 | | 27 Oct 2011 10:01 AM | | I agree with the take on Midway in "Shattered Sword" that when the US divebombers hit the carriers at Midway, the Japanese aircraft were still in the hangers being serviced and not on the flight decks ready to be launched as the old story and the movie goes. It seems to me that if they had been on deck the damage to the Akagi, Soryu and Kaga might have been more survivable than it was. My reasoning being that there was no way to get rid of the burning planes from the hangergs given the design of Japanese carriers but if they were on the flight deck the could have been pushed over the side. I think Soryu is still lost as she took a bomb hit to the engineering spaces but Akagi and Kaga might have been salvagable. Now wetther Nagumo does anything different is another matter. | | | Vive la France! | |
|
Anachronus
Rear Admiral (RADM)
Posts:2286
| | 27 Oct 2011 10:50 AM | | Mods could you fix the typo in the thread title? Fuchida not Fuchita. | | | Vive la France! | |
|
RichelieuBB
Veteran
Rear Admiral (RDML)
Posts:1419
| | 27 Oct 2011 11:41 AM | | Perhaps so, but then again US planes would have kept hitting the carriers until they were damaged enough to sink. | | Mike Mangus
Beware the French Revolution!
Operational:
HMS Erin DN
FN Richelieu BB
FN Verite PDN
Launched
Le Requin Xebec (AoS)
Under Construction:
FN Mogador DE
FN Gascogne BB (Treaty)
FN Bretagne (1/96) (delayed)
Mothballed:
FN Bearn CV
| |
|
crzyhawk
Rear Admiral (RADM)
Posts:2249
| | 27 Oct 2011 11:42 AM | | Shattered sword was a great book, and there is some evidence to support the thought. Look at the damage to Bunker Hill when she was hit by the kamikaze with armed and gassed planes on deck...heavy damage but she survived. Same deal with the Franklin. I tend to agree, that had the planes been on the deck instead of in the hangar, the severe damage would have been lower. heck, Akagi was only hit by one bomb, really. | | | HMS Invincible
USS Salem (CA-139)
USS Belleau Wood (CVL-24)
| |
|
crzyhawk
Rear Admiral (RADM)
Posts:2249
| | 27 Oct 2011 11:47 AM | | I don't know, as long as the propulsion and steering were undamaged, it's possible that the carriers would have been able to get away. Akagi in particular would have been relatively lightly damaged. the US was out of torpedo bombers (or nearly so) and would have relied on dive bombers for the kills which are unlikely to actually sink them. With the airgroups on the deck, it's possible more aircraft survive as well, and if one of the decks can be patched and returned to action, the IJN has a decent chance. | | | HMS Invincible
USS Salem (CA-139)
USS Belleau Wood (CVL-24)
| |
|
Anachronus
Rear Admiral (RADM)
Posts:2286
| | 27 Oct 2011 11:54 AM | | It was the case of the Bunker Hill that got me thinking along these lines. I do tend to agree that there would have been other strikes attempted against the remains of the Kido Butai, but the US carriers were running a it short of planes as well. It may be that the heavily damaged carriers would have been listed as sunk and perhaps skipped. Then again they could have been seen as easy meat and target again in lieu of Hiryu. I don't think they were in much danger from US submarines given the poor (which is being kindly) state of American torpedoes.
| | | Vive la France! | |
|
Anachronus
Rear Admiral (RADM)
Posts:2286
| | 27 Oct 2011 11:55 AM | | Oh, I know that there is no "right" answer, I am just interested in the thoughts of those on the board.
| | | Vive la France! | |
|
crzyhawk
Rear Admiral (RADM)
Posts:2249
| | 27 Oct 2011 01:40 PM | | You can't forget that the IJN could have regrouped either. Hiryu killed Yorktown, and was likewise killed by Enterprise. So, now you're down to Enterprise and Hornet Vs a damaged Kaga and Akagi. Enterprise and Hornet have no effective torpedo bombers, assume that Kido Butai is running, TF16 is chasing. I'm guessing that the IJN could have probably repaired the Akagi in the night (I'd have to check Shattered Sword when I get home, IIRC the single bomb hit wouldn't have likely hurt many aircraft) and have her operational the next day. Kaga was hit more, and may not have been able to be returned to action. maybe, maybe not. Remember, the USN used delayed action bombs that wouldnt have likely blown up aircraft on the deck...they went down a few decks before detonation.
You also have the Aleutian strike force with Junyo and Ryujo up north as well, perfectly positioned to intercept TF16 from the flank, while Akagi can likely fight back against TF 16.
the more I think about it, the more I think that had those birds not been in the hangars with no ventilation or place for the burning fuel to go...they might have been saved. | | | HMS Invincible
USS Salem (CA-139)
USS Belleau Wood (CVL-24)
| |
|
Anachronus
Rear Admiral (RADM)
Posts:2286
| | 27 Oct 2011 02:10 PM | | Gasoline vapors + enclosed hanger = massive fuel-air bomb. That certainly killed Taiho and Lexington.
| | | Vive la France! | |
|
Bob
Commander
Posts:620
| | 28 Oct 2011 10:22 AM | | You can't compair Bunker Hill and the Jap CVs at Midway. The US damage control was so far ahead of the Japs from the start and we only got farther ahead. We had the best fire fighting equipment in the world. The Japs thought running into the flames to smother them was a good idea.
Progressive fires burned out the drive and sterning systems on the CVs leaving them hulks. Coral Sea, two Jap CVs in dry dock for months. Yorktown 3 days. | | | |
|
Anachronus
Rear Admiral (RADM)
Posts:2286
| | 28 Oct 2011 11:20 AM | | But armed and fueled planes burning on the flight deck are still going to do less harm than the same in an enclosed hanger. The end results may be the same, just slower. Your points on damage control are spot on, but remember part of the reason that the Japanese carriers were out of commission for so long after Coral Sea was lack of air groups.
| | | Vive la France! | |
|
crzyhawk
Rear Admiral (RADM)
Posts:2249
| | 28 Oct 2011 12:45 PM | | Posted By Bob on 28 Oct 2011 10:22 AM
You can't compair Bunker Hill and the Jap CVs at Midway. The US damage control was so far ahead of the Japs from the start and we only got farther ahead. We had the best fire fighting equipment in the world. The Japs thought running into the flames to smother them was a good idea.
Progressive fires burned out the drive and sterning systems on the CVs leaving them hulks. Coral Sea, two Jap CVs in dry dock for months. Yorktown 3 days.
We tried the whole run into the wind thing with the Wasp too. Also, Zuikaku was undamaged after Coral Sea, she just had no airgroup. Also, Yorktown was not fully repaired after Coral Sea, and her one bomb hit was far less damaging then the several that Shokaku took. While USN damage control was certainly better then IJN, I think you're doing a dis-service to the IJN.
| | | HMS Invincible
USS Salem (CA-139)
USS Belleau Wood (CVL-24)
| |
|
Tugboat
Veteran
Admiral
Posts:4548
| | 28 Oct 2011 09:17 PM | | I dunno, I've read a lot of commentary on the relative strength of DC between the warring parties, and the consensus is that the IJN was far behind modern practice. | | | Battling: SMS Scharnhorst, SMS Baden
Building: HMS KGV (Drives, pumps water, guns are in but not plumbed)
MN Edgar Quinet (Hull done)
Drydock/Mothballed: Rus Evstafi, DKM Lutzow, HMS Invincible
Plus 20-odd other projects, according to my Boy Scouts who thoughtfully counted them for me. | |
|
hairy_apple
Veteran
Ensign
Posts:141
| | 29 Oct 2011 01:06 AM | | Two of the Yorktown class, Lexington, and Wasp were all sunk. None of the Essex were sunk and the two mentioned took way more damage then some of the older carriers that were sunk. Damage control had improved a lot, but so did ship design. All the Japanese CVs were older and less advanced designs. Add that to not as advanced damage control and I think they were likely doomed no matter where the fires started. | | | |
|
Anachronus
Rear Admiral (RADM)
Posts:2286
| | 29 Oct 2011 01:48 PM | | I think Wasp was a good analog for the Japanese CV's. Both tried to do a bit too much on too little displacement.
| | | Vive la France! | |
|
moose421
Veteran
Ensign
Posts:147
| | 12 Nov 2011 08:52 AM | | Sorry for coming to this tread late. But I would agree with the DC arguement. The US was way ahead. I can't remember when it happened. But the US discovered that flooding the fuel bunkers with CO2 helped prevent the runaway fires that was so damaging to carriers. Japan never applied this method of DC.
Kim
| | | |
|
Anachronus
Rear Admiral (RADM)
Posts:2286
| | 12 Nov 2011 09:28 AM | | Didn't the USN start working on that after the Lexington was sunk?
| | | Vive la France! | |
|
moose421
Veteran
Ensign
Posts:147
| | 12 Nov 2011 10:12 PM | | I think so but not sure. It does sound about right.
| | | |
|
crzyhawk
Rear Admiral (RADM)
Posts:2249
| | 13 Nov 2011 11:55 PM | | The Yorktown was the first ship to do that at Midway. | | | HMS Invincible
USS Salem (CA-139)
USS Belleau Wood (CVL-24)
| |
|
Knight4hire
Captain
Posts:905
| | 16 Nov 2011 09:21 AM | | My $0.02 worth. It was the DC that determined the fate of the carriers. The IJN just was not trained/experienced to handle such an attack. Remenber that the IJN had thought that they had sunk the Yorktown twice. In the end she had to be scuttled by US forces. | | | I am from the Government, and I am here to help.
www.mabg.org | |
|