Steve Tyng
Veteran
Ensign
Posts:245
 | | 27 Jan 2012 10:29 AM | | Posted By RichelieuBB on 27 Jan 2012 08:15 AM
Foam safe CA will work fine and available at any hobby shop. I'm not a CA fan for sheeting even though it works fine.
Going to do some research today and see if there isn't a foam safe contact adhesive out there. I vaugely recall 3M having something ...
Just looked up the specs on Depron. It's expanded polystyrene. Most solvent based products will eat right through that. If your looking for something to stick the silkspan to the Depron with, you might want to try a 50/50 mix of Titebond2 and water. On my Mogador project, I noted that this mixture has pretty good adhesion to the gelcoat on the hull (had to scrape excess off with a blade). Maybe it would be good enough to bond the silkspan to the Depron? If that works, you should then be able to use contact adhesive to glue the panels on.
Steve | | | |
|
meatbomber
Midshipman
Posts:20
| | 27 Jan 2012 10:51 AM | | For work with depron Uhu-por is the adhesive of choice, its a contact glue that sticks get well even web under a lot of strain due to shape. A lot of people use water based polyurethane floor varnish either directly as a laque or instead of resin when glassing over the depron skin. Very easy to work with but not very tacky initially. Mike I had a look at your other builds and I absolutely love your work  great craftmanship, makes one want to build one too | | | |
|
RichelieuBB
Veteran
Rear Admiral (RDML)
Posts:1419
| | 27 Jan 2012 10:59 AM | | That is an option, Steve. I was trying to avoid using silkspan altogether to simplify the sheeting process. Still, one layer of silkspan is still better than using up to 5 layers on wood (and the resulting time to put on all of those layers). I actually had a similier problem back when I was scratch building foam winged aircraft. 3M 77 spary adhesive was the weapon of choice for bonding wood skins to foam cores. Them 3M went and changed the 77 formula to use acetone as a base solvent which ate the foam. For a while there, we was buying up and hording cans of the original formula whenever we found some. Heh. Did some reasearch this morning and may have found some alternative contact adhesives. 3M 74 spray is supposedly foam safe. 3M Fastbond 30NF is supposed to be made for foam. Both are usually not carried in stores. The most promising so far is a low VOC Weldbond that comes in a green can. It may be available locally in various home improvement stores. Going to check a couple during lunch. | | Mike Mangus
Beware the French Revolution!
Operational:
HMS Erin DN
FN Richelieu BB
FN Verite PDN
Launched
Le Requin Xebec (AoS)
Under Construction:
FN Mogador DE
FN Gascogne BB (Treaty)
FN Bretagne (1/96) (delayed)
Mothballed:
FN Bearn CV
| |
|
RichelieuBB
Veteran
Rear Admiral (RDML)
Posts:1419
| | 27 Jan 2012 11:04 AM | | Thank you for the compliment, meatbomber. I've been scratch building model aircraft for over 30 years. Much of the skills transfer to wood hull building. In fact, I prefer to build wood hulls over using fiberglass hulls. More fun. | | Mike Mangus
Beware the French Revolution!
Operational:
HMS Erin DN
FN Richelieu BB
FN Verite PDN
Launched
Le Requin Xebec (AoS)
Under Construction:
FN Mogador DE
FN Gascogne BB (Treaty)
FN Bretagne (1/96) (delayed)
Mothballed:
FN Bearn CV
| |
|
RichelieuBB
Veteran
Rear Admiral (RDML)
Posts:1419
| | 27 Jan 2012 04:01 PM | | Found the green can Weldbond in our local Lowes. I'll give it a try tonight. | | Mike Mangus
Beware the French Revolution!
Operational:
HMS Erin DN
FN Richelieu BB
FN Verite PDN
Launched
Le Requin Xebec (AoS)
Under Construction:
FN Mogador DE
FN Gascogne BB (Treaty)
FN Bretagne (1/96) (delayed)
Mothballed:
FN Bearn CV
| |
|
Tugboat
Veteran
Admiral
Posts:4544
| | 27 Jan 2012 05:17 PM | | Sweet! Let me know how it goes! I sit here sewing. I am definately looking into a simple sewing machine for making sails with. | | | Battling: SMS Scharnhorst, SMS Baden
Building: HMS KGV (Drives, pumps water, guns are in but not plumbed)
MN Edgar Quinet (Hull done)
Drydock/Mothballed: Rus Evstafi, DKM Lutzow, HMS Invincible
Plus 20-odd other projects, according to my Boy Scouts who thoughtfully counted them for me. | |
|
RichelieuBB
Veteran
Rear Admiral (RDML)
Posts:1419
| | 16 Feb 2012 08:06 PM | | It has been a while since the last update, mostly because the detail work took time and I was trying out different sheeting techniques. Finally though, I feel the ship is far enough long to post an update. In previous posts, I wanted to use Depron as a sheeting material. The advantages was no prep, no grain to work against while curving the stuff around compound curves, and completely waterproof without having to do anything to waterproof. Unfortuantely as it turned out, most glues will melt the stuff.
So I researched and found a couple glues that will not melt Depron such as CA and low VOC Weldbond. The CA would have worked very well except I don't like having the chisel the stuff off the ship to change the sheeting. The low VOC weldbond looked promising except it had a long dry time and required 75 psi of pressure to stick pieces together and even then the bond felt weak. Neither option appealed to me. So for the moment, I'm still on the lookout for a foam safe glue with quick dry and tack times but will still let me scrape it off without damaging the ship's wooden framework. So I fell back on tried and true balsa sheeting prepeared with a few sheets of silkspan and attached to the ship with standard Weldbond. After getting the sheeting on, keel bulb mocked up and in place, and a few other much needed tasks, the ship was finally floated and weighed. 
Float test! Sometimes it pays to have a deep jacuzi tub. Heh.
At the moment, the ship weighs 7 pounds, 8 ounces and floats 1/4" light from the target waterline. I'm pretty confident the ship will carry 8 to 8.5 pounds of weight without any problems. My earlier guesses as to the finish weight seem to have been pretty accurate.  What does concern me though is the ship's load capacity. At 8.5 pounds, the ship will have 2 pounds of load capacity. That might be barely enough to put in the cannons, solenoids, and 3.5oz bottle w/ lightweight regulator. I may have to reduce the number of cannons from 4 to 2. I knew going in that this was going to be a tough build to arm. The Requin has a VERY shallow hull compared to brigs and sloops of the same size. 
Painted up and ready to go for maiden
Tomorrow (Friday) is my regularly scheduled day off. The weather is supposed to be good with a light to medium breeze. Sounds like perfect sailing weather! So tomorrow will see the maiden of the Requin and another sport sailboat I recently picked up for fun. There will be pictures. Wish me luck! | | Mike Mangus
Beware the French Revolution!
Operational:
HMS Erin DN
FN Richelieu BB
FN Verite PDN
Launched
Le Requin Xebec (AoS)
Under Construction:
FN Mogador DE
FN Gascogne BB (Treaty)
FN Bretagne (1/96) (delayed)
Mothballed:
FN Bearn CV
| |
|
Nikki
Captain
Posts:990
| | 16 Feb 2012 09:44 PM | | Hey mikey,
shes looking great!
Nikki | | | The mighty beast is wounded, a Swordfish torpedoed the steering gear, with rudder's jammed..is his Achilles Heel with... K.G.5 and Rodney closing in for the kill". From "You Must Sink The Bismarck" on youtube.. On a sidenote, That line is true :D | |
|
Brooks
Midshipman
Posts:14
| | 16 Feb 2012 10:15 PM | | She looks beautiful, Mike.
For your maiden, why don't you take some extra sheets of stiff plastic ( I cut up blister packaging) and some hockey tape (waterproof). That way, you'll have pondside materials to experiment with keel area, and location of the CLR, if needed. Also, you can add to the rudder if you want more rudder authority. I confess that, in spite of calculations, I usually have to move something to make my multimasters sail right :-).
| | | |
|
warspiteIRC
Veteran
Lieutenant
Posts:476
| | 16 Feb 2012 11:06 PM | | She looks beautiful, Mike! Much like most of your ships! | | | |
|
Gascan
Veteran
Captain
Posts:803
| | 16 Feb 2012 11:13 PM | | That's gorgeous! I can't wait to see her on the water. Congrats on the first sailing ship intended for combat (even if she's a bit short on guns at the moment). | | | |
|
Das Bütts
Veteran
Ensign
Posts:245
| | 17 Feb 2012 11:29 AM | | Well done and very sharp! As far as arming goes. 4oz+- per average interrupter cannon I believe. There goes 1 lb. That leaves you with 1 lb. I bet you can get 4 magazines empty with a 3.5oz bottle (14.5 oz or so when full). One with a lightweight (aluminum) valve body would be best. I have seen a couple, none recently. I believe BC had some at some point. A Palmer reg is 3oz. Solenoid is 3-4oz. Plus all your lines and fittings. A pin valve setup on the tank saves 3oz or so. Using geek breaches could save some weight. Plastic tube or aluminum magazines for cannons= weight savings. I also have some .250 OD high pressure nylon tube with a .180 ID that should work. I can get more from a local Parker dealer. Also when Strike comes out with their redesigned "fast" gun cannon (injection molded or machined, maybe both) you might realize some weight savings there too. I think it is do-able with patience and the right components.
Das Butts | |
Mike Butts
Mineman Second Class US Navy
Big Gun:
FN Normandie (in drydock)
RM Capitani Romani (on the ways)
Fast Gun:
SMS/USS Zrinyi (Radetzky Class)
HMS Queen Elizabeth (1944) (on the ways)
Ordered (not yet under construction):
FN Henri IV: Treaty
USS Puritan: Battlestations
USS South Wind: all formats (hopefully)
| |
|
meatbomber
Midshipman
Posts:20
| | 17 Feb 2012 12:47 PM | | She looks absolutely gorgeous Mike! i`m very happy i wasn`t right with the 5 1/2 lbs  Can`t wait to see pics of her out on the water. | | | |
|
pamnjay
Veteran
Rear Admiral (RDML)
Posts:1283
| | 17 Feb 2012 01:06 PM | | She is a beauty all right.
Look forward to the pics,
J | | | "There it is again...kind of a BOOM sound" -short lived Allied lookout | |
|
Nikki
Captain
Posts:990
| | 17 Feb 2012 03:40 PM | | Mike,
How did she do on her first Trip out on the water????
Nikki | | | The mighty beast is wounded, a Swordfish torpedoed the steering gear, with rudder's jammed..is his Achilles Heel with... K.G.5 and Rodney closing in for the kill". From "You Must Sink The Bismarck" on youtube.. On a sidenote, That line is true :D | |
|
RichelieuBB
Veteran
Rear Admiral (RDML)
Posts:1419
| | 17 Feb 2012 07:37 PM | | Welp, the Requin's maiden went so so. The day was sunny, around 65 degrees, with light 5 - 7 mph winds. The water was calm on my side of the pond from shore out to about 25 feet. I tried to give the Requin a push out, but the ship went out about 10', stopped, and turned into Irons ... and the rudder servo decided that was the best time to stop working. Obviously, I wasn't thrilled with the rudder servo's decision. After recovering the Requin and setting it to the side, I brought out and launched a ready-to-sail ship called the Nirvana. It handled the light winds very well and I sailed it all over our end of the pond for the next hour and a half. After beaching the Nirvana, I looked over the Requin and noticed the rudder servo was working again. I removed the mizzen sail since it was interfering with the main sail and launched the Requin again with a firmer push. This time ... the rudder servo quit again. Bleah. But without the mizzen sail I actually had some control of the ship by individually setting the main and fore sails. The ship drifted broadside to the wind about 15' from shore while I played with the sails. Suddenly, a wind puff came along and off went the Requin! It only took two clicks of sail offset (front sail out and main sail in) and the Requin was carving along perfectly balanced! Since the rudder wasn't working, I tried sheeting out the fore sail to try to get the ship to turn into the wind. Nothing really happened other than the ship barely started turning windward. The ship was quickly running out of pond and heading towards some shoreline moss. I sheeted the foresail in tight which forced the Requin into a leeward turn towards the shore I was on where it quickly grounded on the keel. After recovering the Requin, I noticed a couple problems. Apparently, I sheeted in the foresail tight enough to yank the clew grommet completely out of the sail. Other problems that need to be fixed include trimming the main sail so it will clear the mizzen mast and mizzen sail, moving the foresail sheet guide further forward on the deck to clear the bottom of the mainsail yard, and readjust the servo endpoints to prevent sheeting in the lines too tight. Oh, not to mention installing a new rudder servo. Also, the Requin was running a little bow heavy and could use some more weight in the stern. Overall, the ship showed promise. It moved pretty good once it got air and seems to be pretty close to balanced. I'd like to see how it works after I fix all the problems from the maiden sail. | | Mike Mangus
Beware the French Revolution!
Operational:
HMS Erin DN
FN Richelieu BB
FN Verite PDN
Launched
Le Requin Xebec (AoS)
Under Construction:
FN Mogador DE
FN Gascogne BB (Treaty)
FN Bretagne (1/96) (delayed)
Mothballed:
FN Bearn CV
| |
|
Brooks
Midshipman
Posts:14
| | 17 Feb 2012 08:29 PM | | Congrats on a successful maiden - ship did not sink, and you got her back to shore....I've had worse :-).
Differential sheeting of multimasted ships (to control course) is their best feature, I think.You did well, pat yourself on the back :-)
Steering by sail control works with the wind, as opposed to flipping the rudder to force the ship to do something it's not wanting to do. Initially, I had no rudder on the Pamir. Tacking and wearing by sail control only was possible, but took finesse and skill (and the right wind). A rudder is a big help, no question. But learning to sail w/o the rudder teaches one lots of micro seamanship. To tack your vessel w/o rudder will take practice and maybe some adjustment of keel location. From your finding that a slacker foresheet was needed to sail straight, I'd guess that, for that point of sailing at least, your keel is a little too far aft. Or it could simply be a result of the airflow off the foresail backwinding the mainsail a bit (which would reduce it's effectiveness - by then reducing the foresail's effectiveness, you achieved balance).
The "2 clicks" adjustment should be a clue that small sheeting adjustments can make a big difference - sailing is a game of subtlety :-). | | | |
|
Kotori87
Rear Admiral (RADM)
Posts:2343
| | 17 Feb 2012 11:22 PM | | Hey, pretty good! I can't wait until we can sail together; I wonder how her performance compares to Constitution and Victory. You know that's one of the first things I'm going to do when we finally meet. I've out-maneuvered electric-powered ships before, so you know I have to try. Now we just need pictures | | | There are 101 different types of people: those who understand binary, those who don't, and those who just can't count... | |
|
love lZ evol
Lieutenant
Posts:350
| | 21 Feb 2012 01:14 PM | | Wow that thing is awesome, i never had much of an interest for the age of sail but man after all that work you put into that it really makes you appreciate it alot more | | | Life: its not about the destination, its about the journey getting there*********************************Life's a garden...DIG IT! | |
|