R/C Naval Combat

Greg makes some good points about how many of us long-time model airplane builders and pilots felt about the introduction of ARF and RTR airplanes. But the truth is, they have virtually killed the kit market. Mostly, people don't build model airplanes anymore, and when they ding them up or have "hard landings," they throw them away and start over. To me, that's not an improvement. Just because we now have many more people flying cheap, Chinese-made park flyers and helicopters does not mean the world is a better place.

But we are really talking about apples and oranges, here. An individual can go to Walmart - not even to a hobby store - and buy a RTR airplane or helicopter, and then find some clear air and fly it (assuming he has piloting skills, that is). He doesn't need a club, or a flying field, or even a buddy to fly with. That is not the case with RC warship combat. This is an activity that one can't even practice on his own, much less engage in. Whether you build or buy a combat ship, you need a pond or lake to run in, and you need something to shoot at, or it's pointless to have a combat ship. That's where my real objection comes in to the idea that someone could buy an armed ship in a hobby store. What would he do with it?

In my own club's case, we have extremely tight safety regulations we have to adhere to, in order to indulge in our game. We have to have current NAMBA membership for the individual insurance policies, and a NAMBA site-owner's policy to protect the City of San Jose and the Santa Clara Water District, and all of that has to be renewed each year. Can you imagine making it so easy to get your hands on a combat ship that it would be nothing but a toy with which an individual idiot could go out on his local park lake and shoot ducks? How long do you think it would take for local, State - even Federal authorities to take notice of the rest of us, even those of us who are responsible? In some places in the world, the guns we use are already considered to be firearms. Just reflect on this for a bit.

Finally, here's a fact: we already have ARF and RTR combat ships. When someone expresses an interest in wanting to get involved in my club, eventually - if it feels right - that newcomer first gets a loaner, and then ends up buying a running ship. We all have multiple ships in our fleets, and the cost of buying one of these vessels is a fraction of what a manufacturer would have to get in order to make a profit. I've seen armed cruisers go for under $300, radio included.

I submit that it is not the availability of ready-made combat ships - or lack thereof - that is holding back the growth of RC warship combat. It is, rather, a combination of the perception on the part of the public that we destroy model ships, and all of that work and money literally sinks to the bottom forever, plus a lack of effort put into effectively promoting and marketing our clubs to stimulate recruitment in our local communities. No one ever asks how WWCC has managed to grow so solidly and steadily, no matter how many times I mention how well we're doing. Instead, people either come up with negative and gloomy projections about the long-term prospects for health in the hobby as a whole, or suggests a technological solution to what is, in essence, a people problem.

My 2 cents, anyway.

Rob

Rob I think so many points here are right. And even in our hobby there are apples and oranges since as I have observed the Big Gun guys tend to put more detail on their ships and pay more attention to construction whereas the fast gun guys are thumb jockeys that build the ship to a different specification and then battle it. You will get no arguement from me that Big Gun ships are works of art with complicated cannons and beautifully made hulls and superstructure. I dont feel that level of work and craftsmanship will go away anytime soon regardless of who comes to the hobby.

As far as kits going out of production that is a good point also. Why did the plane mfr.'s stop making kits? Did the existing flyers buy less? Perhaps there was more money in the RTR market and they switched? Who knows? If RTR ships are offered in hobby shops would it put strike models or battlers connection out of business? No way. Perhaps once in a while a buyer that had been exposed to the hobby by a local club is looking to buy a ship might buy a RTR when he might have ordered a hull from BC OR SM. If they ordered the hull then there was a slim chance he would even finish it and battle at all. The exposure in the hobby shop would bring in new captains that would not have heard of the hobby otherwise therefore it wouldnt circumvent business for BC or SM at all. Instead we would have an additional ship to shoot at and if the captain kept with the hobby their next stop would be to build their own ship and would partronize BC or SM. The existing hobby base will continue to do business with BC and SM and perpetuate the hobby.

I am a full believer that armed ships must be controlled in some manner for the reasons Rob listed. I firmly believe that fully armed ships is a big mistake and even if you made them I dont think any hobby shop would be willing to sell a floating gun. I really believe that the clubs should assist in training the captain and arming the ship.

With this said, how is buying an unarmed used ship from an existing captain or a new unarmed ship in a hobby shop different? One of the two used ships I bought used as a rookie had no cannons and it has been very difficult to get cannonns and make the mounts. In fast gun most all cannons follow some basic measure of consistency in design so you could use most any straight magazine fast gun and just cut the upfeed to size and mount in a ship that already had the mounts created. I have learned that tweaking the guns is an art form so it would take veteran assistance to get the guns to work in most cases anyway.

I am trying to expand my group in Houston and would like to hear more about what is working for bringing in new captains. The majority of the people I have spoke too were interested in naval history, the R/C angle, and the novelty of the combat. Only about 5% (a3 or 4 people) were worried about damage to the ship and wouldnt you know it, they were scale model builders. I wonder how many Big Gun captains started as scale model builders or just model builders. The model builders I have encountered refuse to build a semi-scale ship and are horrified at the prospect of having it shot to pieces. The one block for our area is a lack of available used ships ready to go. They want to fight not build same as myself initially.

So I do believe that what works for one segment of the hobby doesnt work for another. In fact it might even be more at the club level. If a club has primarliy model builders then they will pursue other model builders instead of potential combat only captains. If a local club has more combat oriented captains (more battle than build OR building is a means to get to the battle) then you will see less in the way of finely constructed ships but more particpants in local battles.

Personally I dont feel like this hobby should be exclusive. I like the diversity of the captains, their backgrounds, careers, etc. It adds to the experience. When we created an RC Car club back in 86 the guys came for the racing and the cars. When they were bored with that they left. I have already been at that point of getting out due to the long construction process but stayed for the people I met and I feel that a lot of captains miss that point.  In fact I have finally gotten to know some folks well enough that I am looking forward to the next battle so that I can see them.

My overall point is that I would have had the same experience and perhaps even a better experience (instead of 1.5 years of frustration) if I had been able to get a good quality, reliable RTR ship that I could have taken to my club and got trained and armed. I wonder how many other captains we might have had in our fast gun hobby and at regionals and at NATS if they had been able to get a good working ship when their interest was at its top level.

What do you think?

Jadfer, I think you make some good points. I suppose a RTR unarmed ship in a hobby shop wouldn't be such a bad thing in itself. I just don't think it's very realistic to think that any manufacturer would even go there, financially. It would be one thing if there were universal standards for construction, and maybe there are for Fast Gun. Nothing like that exists for Big Gun, plus there are 1:96 and 1:72 RC warship combat scales, as well.

What we are is a tiny niche market (RC warship combat) that is fragmented to start with, and it's a niche market in a niche market (RC warships), that is itself a niche market in the RC boat market, which has a small market share of the overal RC market. To put it into perspective, there is not one RC warship combat supplier I have even heard of who can "eat off" the business. To my knowledge, all of them are retired or have "day jobs." (If I'm wrong about that, I'd love to hear about it.) That's how small the market is. It's a labor of love for RC warship combat enthusiasts.

Someone might argue that we could change all that if we could get somebody to mass-produce RTR combat ships and get them marketed properly, but I just don't see it happening. I don't even feel that it needs to happen.

But let me address one of your points about how to grow a club. I completely agree with you that if a club tries to focus on recruiting only one type of individual, it's not going to be very successful in the long run. However, I will say that in order to be a successful combat skipper, whether Fast Gun, Big Gun, 1:72 or 1:96, he or she eventually needs to become a good builder, engineer, mechanic, electrician and amateur naval historian, as well as have (or develop) good hand-eye coordination and team cooperation skills. The successful club will take anyone who seems to at least have the desire to develop those skills and gain that knowledge, and mentor the recruit through the steep learning curve that it takes to succeed. That's one of the main reasons I'm extremely skeptical that the hobby would grow if only people could buy RTR combat vessels first, and then later hope to find somebody to help them figure out what to do with it.

Let me explain myself a bit more. I don't know how long you've been a combat skipper, but if it's been a year or two (or more), I'm sure you have met people who immediately think they want a Yamato. Or a submarine. Or a PT boat. In the model airplane world, the equivalent is the newbie who buys a scale P-51 Mustang - one of the hardest aircraft of all to fly - as his first RC airplane. Someone who does not have a veteran skipper to help in that purchase will not know what to buy, or even have a clue as to whether the ship he's buying would be legal at the closest club pond or not, and on and on. I submit that mass production of RTR combat ships not only will not happen, it does not need to happen. and even if it did happen, it would not have much of an impact on the growth of any of the various flavors of our hobby.

There seems to be a general feeling among some people in our greater community that we need to focus on growing the hobby itself, as though there could be a RC warship combat hobby without clubs and ponds and permits and insurance and all the rest of it, and it's just not realistic. If people feel driven to grow the hobby, my suggestion is to start with growing a club in your local area. Get it down. Write a manual on what you did to make it succeed. Publish it. I'll help you. Reach out to other clubs that might be struggling and help them get on their feet. Go out and start new clubs within convenient driving distance of your club, so you can have interclub meets,  and teach them how to be successful. That is the secret to growing the hobby. It can't be done from the other direction, because you can't have combat without somebody to fight, and you can't just go down to the local pond or lake and start shooting. It will always be this way, because it can't be any other way.

Tomorrow, I'll be leaving for Southern California for a combined South Coast Battle Group/Western Warship Combat Club weekend meet. Stephen Morgret from Strike Models, who by chance happens to be a fellow club member, is also going, both as a skipper and a supplier. The main purpose is to "reinvigorate" the SCBG club, which has fallen on lean times, and needed a boost. We have grown WWCC to a size where if someone takes it upon himself to put something like this meet together, he's likely to get at least 5 or 6 skippers who want to do it, and can make the trip (around 8 hours by car). SCBG has already gained at least 2 new members, just because we're doing this. That is an illustration of one way to stimulate growth.

One other thing about growing a club: Take anyone who is willing to learn. We have 8 year-old members in WWCC who are quite competitive, and we have people in their seventies - and every age in between. We have women skippers. We have blue collar workers, college students, computer professionals, engineers, suppliers, teachers, salesmen, you name it. The more different types of people, the greater your networking reach, and the more likely you are to succeed. 

If anybody is interested in hanging out with us this weekend, the information about the meet is in the general folder.

Rob 

Ready to run ship, 144 scale, rubber superstructure and details,  barbette gun mounts in place, no guns, no holes cut out.  You buy it, you sail it. If you want to battle it, you arm it and cut it out according to ruleset. The manufacturing of this could be done because the non- battlers would offset the cost of making a niche model. The business could make money (possibly) and offer more products, the battlers would have a ready to mod ship and there would be a market created for aftermarket "hop up " kits like other rc hobbies. You would still need a club and mentors involved for the gun battling so not as many rouge builders shooting wildlife. (unless they are good at building gun kits on their own)

Offer a basic platform all can build off of, offer the armed idea as the elite model (like a super detail kit for the basic boat)

Posted By crzyhawk on 26 Jan 2010 03:21 PM
I think Rob has got the right idea there. Market the ship as an RC surface runner. Build it so it can be easily "converted" to a warship later but cutting windows, adding weapon systems etc later.

OK, I'll play along. Let's talk about what such a RTR model ship would look like. Would it have a fiberglass fuselage? Balsa skin? What sorts of motors? Would it be set up for Fast Gun or Big Gun? Would it have a pump? What sort of pump? How many pumps? What capacity would the pumps have? Would it have rotating turrets? Be set up for Fast Gun? Big Gun? Would it have an ESC already installed? Which one? How about the radio? Would the radio be waterproof? Blast shields? Linkage? 

How could it be RTR, and at the same time, not have penetrable windows? Whose rules would it be built to?  Would it be truly 1:144 scale? By what set of plans? Would it be legal in any club, anywhere?

How much would this ship have to cost, and how many would they need to sell in order to break even?

Rob

Our club (Western Warship Combat Club) has grown, and continues to grow. The way we do it is to go out and take every opportunity to demonstrate our ships, even if it's to just sail around on a nearby R/C model boat pond or lake. We do static displays at other R/C club events - even the annual "fly-in" at one of the R/C flying fields. We even have a booth at next month's local IPMS (International Plastic Modelers Society) show.  Anywhere we display combat ships, people gather around to ask questions. We hand out flyers at each venue, too, plus (of course) we have a website with our schedule and battle photos, along with members' construction and engineering projects.

Our biggest recruiting event of the year is at the California Maker Faire (this year it's May 22-23). We built a portable pond that we set up in a large arena - with bleachers and polycarbonate shielding - and we hold battles in front of live audiences. Last year, we "performed" for over 6,000 people in the two days of the event.  We also came up with a kids' fun competition we call Race 'n' Shoot, involving families chosen from the audience. Kids are the skippers of 1:32 R/C PT boats that we have mounted single-shot ping pong cannons to. The kid's moms and/or dads are the crew, loading the cannons. The kids race their boats to a floating ring, fire the ping pong balls into the ring, then race back to get reloaded. At the end of the period (typically 10 minutes), the team with the most ping pong balls in the ring win.

All of this spreads our name and hobby/sport on the Internet, and in local and Internet news media. It's all a question of numbers. The more people who see you and your boats, the better your chances of finding kindred spirits. That's the only viable way I can think of to grow a club. Once we have attracted someone who has an affinity for the admittedly wacky obsession we have, we quickly get his or her (we now have women skippers in our club) hands on the sticks of a convoy vessel, and if they catch the bug, we get them going with a combat ship.

Our club now numbers over 35 people, so we must be doing something right. I'm not suggesting that you have to do all of the things I've talked about here, but if you don't do something to continually promote your club and the hobby, the chances of growing are slim.

Rob