R/C Naval Combat

so i read this somewhere that people were using list conrols on their boats. basically some form of device which makes the ship list automatically.

why they should be allowed.
so real ships have these, yes some mainly aircraft carriers.
using them could cause you to sink your own boat making above waterline hits below waterline.

why they shouldnt
an experienced skipper could make only deck available in a broadside combat.

both
they can be used for damage control.

what do you guys think

All combat ships can do list, but it is intentionally flooding parts of your own ship, not a special system. It is never done unless the ship is taking on water along one side that puts it in danger of capsizing.

It is illegal in some clubs, and frowned upon in others.

You really can't control list by pumping water without a longitudinal bulkhead, which I don't think anybody allows.

I've heard people talk about using a movable weight, but never heard of anyone going beyond talk. To me, it seems like a lot of work for marginal benefit at best.

JM

The WWCC has a history of using listing devices. I believe FirePower Dan has more info, but if I recall correctly, the original WWCC listing device was actually a counter-listing device in a large battleship. It was several massive SLA batteries on a movable platform, controlled by a servo that the skipper could use to level out the boat if it began to list due to flooding. Apparently it worked pretty well for the time, although modern water channeling and other damage control have effectively eliminated the need.

More modern listing devices saw use in cruisers. Of particular note was a Mogami which hung a small fishing weight from the end of the aircraft crane. He would swing the weight over to the side, listing the ship to reduce its target area, and circle around the outside of the battle area looking for disabled ships, rookies, and other easy prey. He got quite a reputation as a vulture, until a few years ago when he had a number of fatal encounters with modern torpedo-boats.

Gascan and I experimented with a listing device in the torpedo-cruiser Luigi Cadorna, mounting an 8oz weight on a servo arm to swing it back and forth inside the ship. It was a dismal failure. The weight was barely enough to tip the ship a degree in either direction, even at the extreme physical ends of travel. We found that 2-lb weights had much better effect, but didn't have the space for a listing device strong enough to shift such a large mass.

When you build your Nelson-class, you'll have a "listing device". The combined weight of nine barrels hanging to one side will make her list noticeably.

haha this is true
i think it was on a thread here that someone wrote that their club had legalised listing devices eg a weight inside the boat which they could move to make their boat list, there by only showing deck to their potential enemies. i think it should be banned, as in intentional listing, if your boat has a lot of guns and moving them causes the list then i dont think thats avoidable.

I don't think there worth the trouble and takes away from teh game. What next specialized compartments for counterflooding. ?

ADM STOKOMOTO

im glad to see noone thinks they are a good idea, i hope this means they will never even appear.

Now hold on a minute, squires and curt, before you dismiss listing devices. What's all this about "it takes away from the game"? I will freely admit that listing devices (and counter-listing devices) don't contribute a whole lot to the game. but they DO NOT, I REPEAT DO NOT take anything away from the game.

Let's take a look. I am assuming that you are concerned about people using listing devices to present only their deck to their opponent, and avoid taking damage. There are two problems with this technique. First, if you list one way to present your deck, you're presenting your pretty red bottom in the other direction, and any entrepreneurial skippers over there will not hesitate to send some steel your way. Second, even the best listing device only protects from long-range fire (which I have found mostly harmless anyway). Anyone who gets within 3 feet of your ship will have sufficient down-angle on their guns to put holes below your effective waterline. And in Big Gun combat, two solid hits from a 7/32" or 1/4" triple will cause enough flooding quickly enough that a ship with a listing device might not be able to recover from its list, and capsize right then and there. I have seen ships of all classes put holes in the Mogami with a listing device while at close range. While it has never been enough to cause a capsize, the possibility by itself is enough to force the skipper to stop using his listing device.

And I haven't yet even mentioned the challenge of building a listing device in the first place. There's a very good reason why, out of all the hundreds of ships that have been built and battled in the WWCC's long history, that only one ship has ever successfully mounted a listing device. it's not for a lack of trying. It's just really really hard to do. You might as well say "I want to ban submarines because they don't sound fun" or "I want to ban custom-built radio systems with advanced computer controls because of the potential combat advantages they provide". They're comparable on both levels, in the difficulty of construction and in the (few and limited) practical benefits. If someone wants to build a diving submarine, would you deny them? The benefits of a diving submarine are a just reward for someone who tackles the challenge of building one. So, too, are the meager benefits of a listing device, for anyone who tackles the monumental feat of installing a working listing device in their ship.

So please, don't go off banning things you don't like without any experience with them. It discourages innovation and discourages enthusiastic members. If someone in your club does build one, give it a try. I think you'll find, as I did, that it's no as bad as you're imagining. If you find that it really is a problem, then go ahead and ban it. Just wait until you've tried it, first.

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Originally posted by CURT

I don't think there worth the trouble and takes away from teh game. What next specialized compartments for counterflooding. ?

ADM STOKOMOTO

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Most people don't think they are worth the trouble, so it's very unlikely you will ever see one. The one system that I have seen did not seem to take away from the game at all. It was just one more thing for the guy to worry about, and could be overcome. He's been sunk at least once every battle he's attended since 2005. I don't think you even need to put in the effort to ban them. If someone wants to put one in their ship, let them. The more complex the plumbing, the easier it is to stuff up the drain, as Dan likes to say. IF someone gets around to building one in your club and IF it becomes a problem, THEN ban it.

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Originally posted by Darren Scott

When you build your Nelson-class, you'll have a "listing device". The combined weight of nine barrels hanging to one side will make her list noticeably.

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Having cut my Nelson's barrels to scale length, mine doesn't have that problem (A Turret's barrels barely extend beyond the edge when aimed directly to beam).

JM

I think an automatic list control would be great, it could help eliminate or limit cannons shooting above "horizon". if someone had the room they could install water tanks on each side of thier ship, fill each one half way, connect the tanks with tubing with a pump in the middle. then get one of those automatic pitch controls they sell for subs, install it sideways and hook it up to the pump/pumps. you could potentialy do the same for bow to stern also, but not sure if it would be necesary

those are very valid points i assume they would be reasonably dificult to build and for a large amount of list you would need to reduce weight else where, i do still see the issue that listing the right way they would be able to present only a deck, but as you said this just means you use two ships instead of one.

Squires, I think that Mark is proposing using an automatic system to maintain an even trim, not one that could be used for target-presentation-adjustment. Actually, he's proposing a system that would use variable ballast the same way it's used in battle, to prevent listing :)

The way I see it, there are two sorts of mechanisms, depending on how they are used. Counter-Listing devices are used to keep the ship level, preventing guns from pointing above horizontal in heavy seas, heavy battle damage, etc. Then there's the Active Listing devices, which are used to intentionally produce a list, either to reduce long-range target area or to give broadside cannons more down-angle in close-range engagements. Of the two, the more questionable is the Active Listing device. Right now, I consider both systems to be comparable to a diving submarine in terms of complexity and potential benefit. If someone should invent a highly reliable, easy-to-build listing device and that has a harmful effect on the health of the hobby, I have no problem with restricting it to counter-listing devices only. But, until it is clearly demonstrated as bad for the hobby, I will continue to support the concept.

IRCWCC outlawed this years ago. It seems (and don't quote me) someone had a servo with weight mounted high in the superstructure and would swing it from side to side to gain tactical advantages over his opponents. As far as the other clubs, you decide what to do but remember, it is easy to turn to the dark side...[}:)]

My Rodney's barrels are to scale length, (actually,a little short) but they're made from a fairly thick-walled tube. That's why they make her list. I'm actually considering installing counterbalance weights on the back of the cannons. Or a counter listing device.

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Originally posted by Tugboat

Squires, I think that Mark is proposing using an automatic system to maintain an even trim, not one that could be used for target-presentation-adjustment. Actually, he's proposing a system that would use variable ballast the same way it's used in battle, to prevent listing :)

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i see this and i think that its a valid point, as for listing to present only deck then i think it goes a little outside the idea of the game, hence subs have penetrable area on the roof of the sub, - well the only one i have ever seen had - listing to prevent your ship from sinking due to exposed hull or to aim a certain way i see is more realistic and i think could be included in the game, or listing to prevent cannon depression in large barrelled guns. also more realistic as the real ship would have had a counter weight in it.

remember i only wanted to see people opinions of such devices so if it was to come up i could make a more informed decision of why it should or shouldn't be included. my inital thoughts were that it was unrealistic and was more or less cheating, now i feel very differently about it and that there are more ideas behind it then initally thought