R/C Naval Combat

The only thing with compressed gases, is the danger of accidental explosion. in a small thing like a torpedo, keeping pressure enough to run, and keeping the wieght down might be an issue.

Have you ever dropped a fully charged capacitor into water?

*Not that i can remember*

OKay guys, Im going to brave the waters, so to speak, and add my .02 cents to the mix.

First of all, Weather or not they are locomotive or gas powered a new torpedo design must be created in order to make subs effective at all. A ball bearing is not hydrodynamic enough to travel under water for any distance at all. Not to mention ball bearings are not buoyant so the second they leave the tubes they're already sinking. The Ball bearing "torpedoes" may work fine for surface ships, but they dont cut it for subs.

Now, I dont have the technical expertise to screw around with the micro-motors to make a locomotive torpedo design, so I based the design Im presently testing off of a gas-powered design. It's much simpler to implement.

There was quite a bit of discussion about the "fairness" of a torpedo being able to fire from 10' away (or more) and how that would out of range of return fire. ....in all honesty, it doesnt matter and it wont unbalance game-play and here's why. Even if my sub is attacking you from 3' away if Im 2' below the surface there is little to no chance that your ship's guns will be able to get rounds to penetrate my hull at that distance. Any damage to a sub is "lethal" and will result in a sink, but the water density will slow your ship's rounds as soon as they hit the surface. By the time they get to my depth they're not carrying any force at all. Secondly, even if I can fire from 20' away who care? I can tell you that based on my own experiments with both Propel Gas and CO2, a torpedo will not carry sufficient force to penetrate even a destroyer hull at 20'. It's just not going to happen. ...and that MATH involved for correctly triagulating the shot....impossible. You have to know the speed of your ship, the angle of your ship, the angle of your bow, the speed and direction of the enemy ship, how fast your torpedo travels, and how long it takes your torpedo to rise to the surface. Additionally, in order for the torpedo to be buoyant in any way at all it needs to be fairly light. This means that it has less mass, which makes it more likely that a strong current will push the torpedo off course. Based on my estimates I'd say that 4'-6' is the maximum effective range of a torpedo. I can tell you that Propel works better than CO2. The CO2 powered ones have a faster muzzle velocity and more "impact" at very close range, but they loose speed very quickly and they dont travel very far at all. 8'-10' max was my experience. The Propel gas torpedoes have a much slower speed, but it's more consistent and they travel much farther. ...but bear in mind that water is dense and has mass of it's own and that for every second that the fish is in the water it's speed and force (read: penetration power) is being retarded and diminished as it uses the kinetic energy to overcome the water's mass in order to move through it. Now, also bear in mind that any sub carrying torpedoes is going to have a MINIMUM firing range. ...(read: safe zone for enemy vessels). For instance: If my sub is 2' down, and I know that my torps travel at 2'/sec and that it takes 3 seconds for my fish to reach the surface from that depth, I know that my target MUST be AT LEAST 6' away or else my fish will pass harmlessly beneath the ship and run too deep. So, one effective counter for surface fairing ships would be to run up right on top of the sub and stay within the safe zone. In order for a sub to shoot at a ship at point blank range, its going to have to surface, thus making it vulnerable and a viable target. Also, I can tell you that 1/144 sub does NOT have the room for a torpedo system AND a Bilge Pump...so any damage that a sub takes is going to cause it to go down. Also, bear in mind that while the surface ships can carry 50-100 rounds (or more) of ammo, the sub's supply is very limited....at best it can carry about 8 torpedoes before it's tubes are dry. Even if all 8 shots hit and penetrate, will that be enough damage to overcome your bilge pump? Put subs in effect and limit thier number of reloads. Heck, even limit their firing cycle. I can tell you that having a sub and trying to "eyeball" distance, range, depth and speed from 20' or 30' away as you sit on the shore is no easy task, even if your sub has a wireless camera and you can "see" where it's going. Driving a sub with 8 reloadable torpedoes that have an 8' - 15' range on the water AND hitting your target AND causing them any significant damage at all is going to be quite a difficult task for anyone attempting it.

....and by the way torpedoes cost about 17 cents each. ;)

Escaping submarine: http://www.westernwarshipcombat.com/chartroom/album58/IMG_7914.jpg
That sub's victim: http://www.westernwarshipcombat.com/chartroom/album58/IMG_7909.jpg

There are submarines that have been fighting effectively for much more than the six years I've been around. The big issue is that submarines in general have more complexity than any other ship, and hence they are much more difficult to make reliable. I don't think that new torpedo systems are needed to make them effective: they already can be. However, I think that if you are working on new torpedo systems, you will also work on improving the general reliability of submarines and overcoming Murphy when you build a sub to put your torpedo system in. This should make them a more common sight on the pond, and I like seeing a variety of different ships.

If a torpedo could be made with a range of one or two feet, that would be a huge improvement over the current range of "bumping the target to fire" weapons currently used. I have yet to see a torpedo from a surface warship score a hit from more than two feet.

Gascan, it seems you and I are more or less in sync on this. It's all about making the subs more effective. And yes, they're INCREDIBLY difficult to drive and operate in a combat setting. My Gato Class testbed is being constructed so that it uses a combination Dynamic/Static diving system to dive down. There are advantages and disadvantages to both systems, but I think a combination system will give me the best usable operational capability for the sub and it's equipment.

I've got a plastic 1/144 Trumpeter kit for the Gato. Looking at the hull, I think "How the heck am I going to fit in batteries and motors, never mind the guns or even a static diving system?" I'm sure we will all look very carefully to see how you pull it off. I've also got a fiberglass I-400 that could benefit from any experiments you do.

For balance, dont forget that subs main weapon is torps. once they fire the ones they have,(usually not many) they have to surface to use a deck gun or to escape to get new torps. Yea subs are complex too. Also listen to john, he is right, depending on how you have your sub set up if u get it could be instantly lethal i mean, if the air is held inside and the deck gets shot, there goes your air. unless u get to the surface quick enough your toast. and even then you could stilll sink.

just like in real life.

I have been on the side lines too long with this one.
Making an operation torpedo would open the door for PT boats!

Back on topic now:
From what I have seen, never has a single below hit been enough to instantly sink a ship.
Real torps tend to make very big holes and sometimes break ship in two. What we are playing with would only make a ¼ hole if we were lucky enough to hit on a 90 degree angle to the hull.

I like the idea of a launch able torpedo instead of simulating them with a single fire 1/4 cannon.
It would make game play more realistic.